But what does anybody mean by hardcore? M-rated games? Difficult games? Retro games? Violent games? Deep games? Fan-service games? I see "hardcore" bandied about meaning all of those categories, most of which already in evidence on the Wii.

Yeah, Nintendo's E3 was disappointing, but largely because they didn't really announce anything that we didn't already know. We already knew about Animal Crossing and Wii Music, you had to figure they'd find some way to mine the Wii Sports name... what we wanted was either a surprise game from an established IP (Mario Galaxy sequel! New Zelda! Pikmin 3! A good Starfox!), or a surprise game from a new IP.

I don't know if Nintendo has a willful ignorance of the hardcore, or if that's just people confusing their own wants with what Nintendo actually delivers. How many "hardcore" games did we get during the first 1.5 years of the GameCube? Not many, and that sealed the fate of the Cube in many gamers' eyes. I think there's a pretty strong case to be made that ANY given console of the current gen is just repeating what happened in the last gen... and we really shouldn't be surprised by it. Nintendo's difference is just that the Wii Remote captured the audience that the PS2 DVD player captured last time.

In the scope of this article, by "hardcore" I mean anyone who is passionate about video games. That could mean reading/writing video game blogs, spending a certain number of hours per week on games, voraciously devouring any and all E3 info and demos, or otherwise actively engaged in Our Beloved Hobby.

For me, disappointment with Nintendo isn't because of new announcements, per se. If they had announced some cool 3rd party titles months ago, and just showed off new gameplay or information, that would be fine in my book. ANYTHING that shows there will be something for me to spend my time and money on for the Wii, would be a good start. Wii Music, Wii Ski, Wii Sport Resort and even Animal Crossing to a certain extent, are essentially just more gimmicks.

I think it is a little early to be predicting the imminent death of Wii's successor based on anecdotal evidence of soccer moms and the fact that the Wii is the fastest selling system ever.

It may have a somewhat lower attach rate, but that is bound to happen with the market Nintendo is aiming at. So, it makes sense to think Nintendo is abandoning the "hardcore" However, I don't think they are...3rd party developers are.

Hear me out. Nintendo gave us a Zelda game at launch and a Metroid game in the first year. Then they gave us a Mario game at the beginning of year 2. I don't know that this many hardcore games have ever seen release on a Nintendo system within the first year or so. It seems more to be the case that the hardcore among us see the release of "casual" titles as somehow negating the hardcore releases or taking the place of them. Nintendo is a big company and is making A LOT of money right now, they are growing and they can handle more games now. It is almost like we are jealous that every game Nintendo makes doesn't cater to us.

I don't think there is a first party problem with the Wii at all in terms of hardcore games. The problem comes in when 3rd party companies see the success of the casual games and insist on trying to replicate this success. The third party companies are the ones abandoning the hardcore for the most part. Are there things Nintendo can do to reverse this trend? I don't know. Is that there responsibility? I don't now. I just think it is a lot to ask for Nintendo to convince other companies to make hardcore titles. How do you go about doing something like that?

I don't think passion is a particularly helpful definition, considering that we already have entries for Nintendo's four key money-making franchises... Zelda, Mario, Smash and Kart. If you're passionate about games, but lack any of those four on Wii... well, it just means you're passionate about different types of games, because those four titles always deliver.

Gamers have short memories, and although we pay lip service to New and Different, it never sells. Zack & Wiki, Elebits, No More Heroes, Trauma Center, Boom Blox, NiGHTS... did any of those perform on Wii? I think the content is out there, it's just not marketed, not differentiated, and for all of our enthusiast press accolades, it's really just us talking to ourselves. Or else people other than us would have bought Metroid 3.

I really wish that Nintendo's E3 presentation had included Fatal Frame 4, de Blob, Sam & Max, Samba de Amigo, or Deadly Creatures... all non-standard Wii games coming out over the next few months... that would have mitigated some of the fan disappointment. If anything, this is less about Nintendo snubbing the "hardcore" and more about Nintendo not sharing press time with third parties WHO COULD TOTALLY USE THE COVERAGE! Instead, they wasted time pretending to ski... because they know that's what will make the Today Show.

I suspect that a big problem with the "Who Had the Worst E3" this year is that the low-key E3 presentations did not adequately reflect the product that is coming out. There's more coming for Wii by the end of the year than Wii Sports Resort and Wii Music, but you wouldn't know that from the speech. All three presentations were pretty lousy examples to pin one's console partisanship on.

sorry to break up your serious comments but every time i see that man drumming it reminds me of somebody on a bad LSD trip tied to a chair with a wiimote tied to their hands.

I believe most of the complaints about Nintendo abandoning the hardcore gamer is from people who don't actually own a Wii and are Microsoft/Sony stooges looking for what idea their chosen consolemaker can copy/ape. If PS3 and XBox360 owners were satisfied with what their consoles offer, why should they care what Nintendo is not doing? Most people haven't noticed the way Nintendo has changed how they announce their games recently; they've taken to announcing games that would launch within a very short time window, sometimes 3 months or less.

Considering how many people bought hardcore games like BlastWorks and Geometry Wars on the Wii I can see why they're pissed that they have nothing new to play. Oh wait! Most hardcore Wii owners ignored these games and the advancements they made especially in user-generated and online components.........

When HVS-developed 'The Conduit', Star Wars: Force Unleashed and other so-tagged 'hardcore' titles debut, let's see where the hardcore gamers are then.....

Firstly, we need to point out that a hardcore game is a game designed to be played for long periods of time. Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Castlevania, Fatal Frame, BlastWorks, Geometry Wars, Trauma Center, No More Heroes, etc etc. Therefore a casual game is something more like Wii Sports, Elebits, Boom Blox, etc... anything you'd play for an hour or so and then go do something else.

Nintendo's E3 conference was about keeping the attention of the mainstream press, and they delivered. I don't think they expected a backlash from the core gaming community. We're supposed to be looking at TGS and things like that. E3's not what it once was, let's not forget that.

That said, Nintendo could have mentioned what big franchises they have in the works, aside from just pointing out that Zelda and Mario games are underway. They needed something to show us to remind us that Nintendo is, as they put it, an "and" company, not an "or." Animal Crossing is an excellent hardcore franchise that has shown a lot of casual crossover capability, as it is something you can play for hours and hours or just an hour at a time. I believe that's why they only showed that.

Firstly, I agree with the comment about the definition of 'hardcore' - it's far too vague a term. Can you really class Animal Crossing as a hardcore game? I'm not going to argue either way but it's certainly debatable.

Now for a number of other points:

The success of the DS certainly had a huge bearing on the success and even creation of the Wii. But the DS didn't *spawn* any hardcore Nintendo fanboys - the 'core' 3 Nintendo franchises did that long before.
The majority of people who bought Wii's didn't do so because of any hype the hardcore market created - they're not the type of people to care one bit about Internet forums or gaming blogs.
The truth is that Nintendo fans want to believe they're responsible for the massive success of the Wii after toiling through the N64 and Gamecube years - and I say that as one of those very same toilers.
To predict the demise of Nintendo's next console is premature in the extreme - and that's me being charitable.
Nintendo's success is due to their bold and risky strategy and, even if it doesn't gel with what some of us want, it's working for them.
And am I the only one that thinks attach rates are far, far less important for Nintendo than for Microsoft? They're already making money on every console they sell, before a game is even bought.

Lastly, and probably the biggest point, is this - the time between Mario, Zelda and Metroid games has always been large, whether it's with the Wii, the Gamecube or the N64. We had a grand total of 1 3D Mario game on the Cube and 1 Zelda game. The effect of that is that the games are of the highest quality and highly anticipated - which is exactly why those franchises are so well regarded.

The 'hardcore' gamers have been made no bigger fools with the Wii than they were with the last 2 Nintendo consoles, where I also remember waiting an age between games I wanted to play. The difference is that there's also now titles on the system that might interest other people.
We'll still get our Mario and Zelda titles, but they won't be as necessary for the survival of the console, and perhaps that's a good thing.

I think the definition of "hardcore" is the kinds of games that appeal to the most dedicated gamers. Most of these games are sophisticated, complex, mature-themed, long, and able to share through online multiplayer; usually a combination of all of them. Mario, Zelda, and Metroid are considered "hardcore" because of the description above. I would hardly put Wii Sports, Wii Music, and Cooking Mama on the list. For every Conduit, there will be 3 Boogies.

We may have "short memories", but we also realize that Nintendo cannot make EVERY hardcore game that there is without third-party support, which leads to the next question: Where are the third-party games? Making console exclusive games are expensive. Most of the "hardcore games" are found in the PS3 and Xbox 360 because they're nearly identical in technology. The PS3 can make games that can push it's Blu-ray tech to the limit (MGS4), but because it's so expensive, third-party developers are often forced to make games to the standards of the Xbox 360 (PS3 fanboys may have a point about FFXIII and DMC4 being "dumbed down", but again, it wasn't Sony that developed them). Nintendo obviously faces a problem with this, but haven't they been since the days of the N64? Is it because they way Nintendo dissed Sony on the CD deal that made Ninty the black sheep of the video games industry?

I guess Nintendo's problems is much deeper than the graphics (GameCube was superior to the PS2 on that aspect). Nintendo is now in it's third generation in which the third party/hardcore games are still leaving much to be desired, and quite frankly my patience has run out. It's off to PC, I guess.

Everyone I know just bought the Wii because it was popular. They usualy either play their 360 or PC more. My ex-girlfriend wants to get one for Wii Sports. I can see within a week the system just sitting there. Nintendo lost their chance for a monopoly of the console war.

Well Mr. Walker, I think that Nintendo's marketing strategy does have a valid point. Sony and Microsoft are tearing each others clothes pushing into the market faster consoles and better graphics in their games. Nintendo probably thought: "screw that". They're most likely trying to reach an unattended (and large) market segment that are not the "hardcore gamers".

Microsoft: "Hey gamers, look! I've got vanilla ice cream."
Sony: "Huh!? No contest Mikey! I've got chocolate ice cream!"
Nintendo: "I brought cake."

I own both a Wii and a 360. I was hyped for the wii the second I heard "backwards compatible." ~ 2 years before it came out. If you asked me whether it was plugged in right now, or even whether it was next to a TV, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Naturally I should hate Nintendo for selling me a gimmick, right?

No, my wii + games and all accessories comes to a total of about $500. Thats SSBB, SM Galaxy, Zelda TP, Paper Mario, No More Heroes, RE 4 (because who paid money for a GC!?), Excite Truck (I liked it, ok?), and a few others I sold on ebay because they weren't worth keeping. I got my money's worth. I've spent close to 200 hours with it (mostly Zelda =P). There's always the problem of 3rd part titles... but then again, why the fuck do I care. As long as I get good games I don't care where they come from.

As far as sales? Does ANYONE actually believe the wii won't come out on top? If you do, you need to stop seeing yourself as part of a larger group (the hardcore gamer) and see yourself as an individual. Then you need to downsize that ego and look at some numbers, YOU DON'T MATTER. Nintendo will undoubtedly sell the most consoles, and (even you can agree with this) turn the most profit. They are, after all, the only company that actually makes a profit on the console itself, and a substantial one at that.

Game companies are still companies, their fate is decided by stockholders just as in any other business... NOT by one group of customers, and only marginally by the entire base.


That being said, I like my 360 more. I wish the wii would've been a 360 with some Nintendo titles and a fancy controller, but I in no way regret purchasing it.

P.S.
You're treating the 360 and PS3 as one entity. Nintendo has completely and utterly conquered the casual market. That leaves only 2 companies to fight for YOUR love. The wii's withdrawal will only encourage the two companies (as you saw at E3, no doubt)

I like Wii
It's good!

say what you will. The Virtual Console RULES!!! Nintendo had a fanbase and was the FIRST universally successful (yes there were others before, but cmon! NES!!!!) company that started a HUGE market...it was the kick off! and from then on those who started w/ Nintendo are hooked no matter what. i LOVE that i can get all my old games from the VirtCon. its sweet! ICE HOCKEY MAN!!! THEY HAVE ICE HOCKEY!!! haha...

Most people that comment and say HUGELY intelligent comments are really biased (which makes their hugely intelligent comments a load of junk) b/c they started their gaming w/ PS generations or sega...which came after nintendo showed what was up. and yes..they basically shoved nintendo out of the way (and yes...sega died too) and everyone was talking Playstation playstation playstation...which...i agree was awesome. i had one too..but you have to give credit where credit is due. who kicked off this hard core gaming show? who started it all and can still survive for being innovative and simple?

they were always doing things outside the box. ps and xbox are sticking to a formula and a strict audience that makes them money. its all ad after ad after ad and preview after preview after preview. and we watch so much tv and read so many sites on games and magazines on games that we have it in our head. think about how many Wii ads you see and compare it individually w/ sony and xbox (xbox having the most ads i bet). then think about what you buy most of...you can say its b/c its the better graphics or gameplay..but then youd be kidding yourself. right now you are reading this comment on a video game company analysis. really we miss what we really see.

Nintendo tried something different and found a new audience. yes hard core gamers are pissed off we have a love/hate relationship going on. Nintendo is kicking back b/c their DS is superior and the Nintendo sales are kicking right now. why try to one up when your not yet dead or dying? thriving and comfortable means stay the course and milk it...then add on to it when its starts to taper off and then sink...then it jumps up again. they are comfortable. why overload us w/ hard core gamer games and push game after game after game that claims to be hard core. why not just be simple...cater to its intended audience and enjoy themselves.

there are some hard core games on the wii. there are very few. i dont think they are marketed very well, the good ones anyway. i also think that nintendo never really cater to that audience as much anymore. i think their real push was SNES and then dropped off w/ N64 b/c of the 3rd gamer party "fallout" they had. but i dont think 3rd party devs dropped out b/c they thought nintendo's consoles were junk and i dont think it was nintendo's fault at all. i seriously think it was b/c who was in the market at that time...Sony..and they dominate....so why not catch Nintendo by the canjones and squeeze until all the 3rd party devs poured out of N and into Sony.)

they do have good hard core games from time to time but ultimately, wii and GameCube was strictly for kids. as well as a lot of the other games before. they just went further and made it family friendly. and thats their angle. a different route. to hell w/ the hard core gamer. they been ragging Nintendo for years. but heck, then again, many MANY hard core gamers are single w/o kids. they got time to bitch and moan and be overly critical.

And Nintendo cannot compete w/ those two bloated giants...Nintendo is solely a gaming company. but Microsoft and Sony got their grubby meathooks in everything, which allows them to have relationships w/ more 3rd party gamers....which allows them to lose money before they make money...which allows them to corner the market and rule w/ the iron fist. Nintendo cant match that...but they are putting up an EXTRAORDINARY fight against these monster companies. you gotta give props for that and quit bitching how disappointed you are w/ nintendo. just watch wait and support. Nintendo deserves that.

The point about attach rates is a valid one. However, people buying additional 360s due to hardware malfunction doesn't help attach rates, since they are increasing the number of consoles sold w/o increasing additional software numbers (actually decreases overall attach rate).

I also think the Wii's software attach rate is inflated by accessory pack-in titles (Wii Play, Wii Sports, Wii Fit). This isn't even factoring in the large amount of original downloadable games on PSN and XBLA (sorry, VC is practically dead), which extend the amount of play time for those systems.

Personally, I'm trading in my wii for a PS3. The reason for this is because I hate shovelware and I don't need to connect a set of scales to my console in order to kid myself that I'm exercising. I have a gym membership thank you very much. Although I am a casual gamer I prefer those titles that are considered 'hardcore', whatever that means. Although to me that means shooting stuff and ogling graphics. CoD4 online for free? Yes please! And the ladies are cuckoo for SingStar. Plus Blu Ray. What's not to like. Mario is a tired old man. If Nintendo WERE solely about gaming, there roster of titles would be more diverse, don't you think?

WTF hardcore is not about the types of games it is based on the people who play certain systems and love them despite what other people think.

WII has already brought us some of our favorite games from Mario, metroid games which began and stood up @ the old gameboy/Nintendo/super Nintendo stage.

We have never expected the M rated games from Nintendo.... Why should we.... those who can remember way back can remember super Mario cart, donkey Kong, Banjo Kazooie, Super Mario World, Red version Pokemon and even Tetris. :P

They are not M and they have been hits..but we love them all the same

This "hardcore gamer" crap has got to stop. I've played games since Atari, I play PC FPSs and I also play Wii Fit and Animal Crossing. Nintendo and "casual games" are not the problem with Wii, it's the slow third parties. And they're picking up. So just sit back, wait, and play some other games until stuff you like comes out for Wii.

I'm not sure Nintendo should care about "hardcore gamers", whatever the online gaming community wants to call itself.

Anecdotal info: At home I have all 3 consoles, I tend to play the 'hardcore games' by myself whereas my entire family will sit and play Wii games until I kick them off it so I can use the TV.

I think the online gaming community is upset because Nintendo have left them feeling jilted - whereas most gaming companies are bending over backwards to hype up the gaming fans for each release, Nintendo don't care.

'Hardcore gamers' are a small demographic at the scale Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo think. Sony and Microsoft developers *need* the gaming community to rally around their big titles to turn a decent profit. So, like Kevin Smith movies, the gaming companies try to cater to your average fan-boy who buys multiple games by adding all the goodies we know and love. Nintendo rethought the equation and decided that it didn't need the gaming community to be successful if it could hook a much larger audience who just want a relatively inexpensive gaming system with some fun games, people who are not going to wait in line for Best Buy to open when the next big game is released.

So why the vitriol? Nintendo as a brand has always been geared towards that market, this time it would appear that they nailed it by not even bothering to try to compromise between hardcore appeal and family appeal. At the same time a $400+ system is a serious investment for any family which has meant adoption by the rabid gamers but less interest from the casual crowd.

Regarding attach rates: "When the Xbox 360 launched, Microsoft touted a higher-than-average attach rate of roughly four games per console. More recently the company announced that the attach rate had passed five games. Video Game Journal took data from various sources, including Microsoft's own sales figures, and showed that the 360's attach rate tended to jump whenever hot new games came out, such as Oblivion in March (attach rate jumped from 4.5 to 8.5 games) and NCAA Football in July (attach rate jumped to 6.3 from 4.4). Rather than reflecting a healthy software market as the figures would immediately suggest, VG Journal suggested that it was in fact an indication that only hard-core gamers were buying Xbox 360s.

Video game enthusiasts tend to buy many more games than the average consumer, and will almost always pick up the latest hotly-anticipated titles. However, catering to the hard-core gaming market exclusively is not a recipe for commercial success." 2006 Ars Technica article from 2006 http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061122-8...

While I applaud you for a fairly well written article, you're still coming off as a disgruntled fanboy who didn't get what he wanted by using words like 'swindled' and 'abandoned'.

Honestly now, you find me empirical data to show that Nintendo is only going after the 'casual' crowd and I'll dig out the link from last year where Nintendo stated their 1st party offerings would take a back seat this year so third parties could have a go.

This ridiculous E3 backlash has got to stop.

What I wanna know is When will the next Zelda be coming out?

JT
www.FireMe.To/udi

I'm more than a little perplexed by this massive backlash of people against Nintendo for what happened at E3. They showed, what, three, maybe four games at their press conference, and the fact that they were aimed at Casual Gamers has sounded the death knell for hardcore games on the console? Is that the point that everyone's making?

I don't really follow how one leads to the other. I mean, maybe if Nintendo only made something like four games a year, we'd have call for concern. But seriously? I was under the impression that Nintendo's a large company with some pretty heavy division of labor. Yeah, they probably have a department dedicated to churning out the much bally-hooed Casual Games and the like, but I find it highly doubtful that Nintendo's pulling anyone from its major teams to work on them. I mean, has anyone actually played one of those mini-game collections? Five minutes is all it takes to realize that they're not exactly very heavy-duty games that required massive dev teams or cash. It's not like Nintendo opts to sacrifice making a Zelda game in favor of something awful like PDC World Championship Darts, as the resources required for the latter are infinitessimal in relation to the entire company.

Yes, Wii Music and Wii Sports Resort are vastly underwhelming games (IMO, of course), but Miyamoto basically confirmed that the Zelda, Mario, and Pikmin teams are hard at work making their respective games. Are these franchises not sufficiently hardcore?

And as for the oft-brought up complaint of Kid Icarus not being announced, they've still yet to actually dispell the rumors of its development. To listen to most complaints would give the impression that Reggie up and said something like "Yeah, we were going to make Kid Icarus, but then we decided to make Wii Music INSTEAD! Bwa ha ha!"

In fact, I can't think of a solid indication whatsoever that Nintendo's operating under this kind of mentality. Their post E3 behavior certainly doesn't support that theory, as they're acknowledging core gamers, they've flat out *apologized* for their lack of hardcore games, and they have gone as far as offering the perfectly reasonable explanation that they didn't feel like E3 was a place for showcasing Hardcore games to the public at large, possibly because E3 has become little more than a glorified power-point presentation in recent years.

I guess you could argue that it's a cover-up, but if they truly don't care about core gamers or, as some believe, want to somehow spite them for some un-established reason, then why go to the trouble of admitting that a mistake was made at all? If they really didn't believe the core gamers weren't worth marketing to, wouldn't they be treating the situation with more indifference? This so-called "willful ignorance" thing, I just don't see it. Doesn't ignorance involve more... I don't know, instances of actually ignoring things?

As a brief aside, I have to ask, are any of the hardcore gamers actually paying attention to the Wii's roster? Manhunt 2 didn't sell well. Bully Scholarship Edition didn't sell very well. Godfather Black Hand didn't sell very well. Most of these games received pretty good acclaim on almost every gaming site. Is there some sort of reason why I shouldn't regard them as hardcore? 'Cause they were ports? How about No More Heroes? That wasn't a port, received numerous accolades for being a good game and for being hardcore and it didn't sell very well and it was marketed at thirty dollars a piece. Or any of those other games that the above poster mentioned: Zack & Wiki, Elebits, Trauma Center, Blast Works, Boom Blox, or NiGHTS? Or Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles? If hardcore gamers have been so integral to the Wii's success, why aren't they buying the non-first party games that are supposed to be... Iunno, hardcore? I mean, whatever your criteria for hardcore is, these games range from cute to ultra violent to incredibly difficult to being part of franchises known primarily to the hardcore, and they *all* received very good scores on gaming sites. What exactly is the reason that Metroid Prime and RE4 get the golden stamp of hardcorage and these others don't?

I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I just don't really understand where all this sense of abandonment is coming. I don't see anyone disputing that MotionPlus has really great potential for a plethora of games that *won't* involve throwing a frisbee to a dog. I don't see anyone saying that the Mario, Zelda, and Pikmin teams currently at work are going to turn out games of Jenga World Tour caliber.

As for this article's final point, I don't know if I fall into the definition of hardcore gamer, but I guess I'm a pea-brain because I'm actually kinda looking forward to games like Tales of Symphonia 2, Megaman 9, Wario Land: Shake It!, The Conduit, Mad World, Fatal Frame IV, Monster Hunter, Dead Rising: Chop Till You Drop, Spyborgs, Mario: Sluggers, Harvest Moon, Monster Lab, Rune Factory, Space Invaders Get Even, Tenchu IV, and even De Blob. Maybe Nintendo didn't really hype any of them at E3 that much, but hey, the whole point of being a dedicated gamer is that I don't need a press conference to tell me that these games are coming down the line.

Hmm I don't see why they can't just have what they got going for them. They're the only major console players who have this demographic - and they do it well.

A question that most people dont ask themselves is this; which is more important in a game? The play or the graphics? The answer, offcourse, is the play and that is IMO why Nintendo has survived to this day while others like SEGA and Atari died remembering that Atari made the first 64bit back then. The resilence of Nintendo cannot be underestimated because they started as a small company making playing cards and look where they are today; competing and, at the moment, outselling massive corporations like sony and Microsoft. People have been predicting the death of Nintendo for a long time due to thier not adopting disks quickly and so on but again they are probably in better shape now than ever. As for hardcore games, the fact that they as selling well means they have more money to re-invest in making games so the future can only be better.

I actually disagree that lower Nintendo sales would lead to less competition. Sony and Microsoft have both made it quite clear that they are not in the same market or after the same audience that they Wii is after. And while both are trying to capture a larger share of the casual market (as indicated by recent e3 reveals) they are truly concentrated on the hardcore market. So, regardless of Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft's real drive and competition are really each other. As a side note, silly wii is silly.